“I think I do sometimes put my mother hat on, don’t I?” laughs Suzanne White.

“I’m more pessimistic. And you’re more optimistic. So we tend to balance quite well,” says her daughter, Madeleine.

The pair are musing on the working dynamic between them over Americano coffees at The Last in Norwich.

Together from Norwich they run the award-winning organic, vegan and plastic free make-up brand Juni Cosmetics, which since its launch two years ago has been making big waves in the beauty industry.

“We just talk about everything. We talk about the worst thing that could happen and the best thing that could happen with any given situation and try to come somewhere in the middle,” says Madeleine, 24.

“I think if I was working with any young woman, I’d probably be a bit motherly at times because of the age difference, so it’s not necessarily just because we’re related,” says Suzanne, 59.

“I think the age difference is good, because actually our products are quite good for women of my age, so we balance from that point of view as well. We represent our customer base. And we do get on really well. We have the same interests."

“Dogs, food,” says Madeleine.

“Make-up, going out. We’re just similar, aren’t we?,” says Suzanne.

“We are very similar people. We finish each other’s sentences and things like that – it's quite cringey actually. It’s not intentional, but when you spend that much time together, I think it’s inevitable,” continues Madeleine.

“But we’re also very determined people, because there have been times where we’ve asked can we really carry on. But we get so many great reviews from customers and people in the industry saying this is absolutely fantastic that we do, so I think we motivate each other,” says Suzanne.

Madeleine, a former model and trained make-up artist, has extremely sensitive skin which makes it hard to wear, and sometimes even be near, cosmetic products.

“I come out in hives and my skin gets very sore, so much as I loved all of these products, modelling, and then working as a make-up artist, being surrounded by them all the time was actually quite a bit problem, it affected my work,” she says.

“Just in a casual conversation I said I’d like to start a brand. It wasn’t particularly the intention to work together, but my mum’s always been really supportive and it just evolved naturally really. And it’s been four years now.”

The vision was to create products which are luxurious and benefit the skin, as well as being ethical. Their first products were lipsticks and they spent two years were spent researching and developing them before launching Juni Cosmetics in 2020.

“We both have always loved the moment of applying a lipstick,” says Madeleine. “And Juni is named after my grandmother, June. I always have visions of her putting her lipstick on.

“I’ve always been very passionate about beauty and fashion it’s been a hobby my entire life” she continues. “For years I’ve imagined what I would create, so I already had some ideas in my mind in terms of products and every time I purchased something new, I would analyse it, so I had some creative ideas already.”

They had support from a mentor at Norfolk and Waveney Enterprise Services (NWES) who provided lots of helpful advice about the fundamentals, including applying for start-up loans.

Then they had to find a chemist to develop the product itself.

“I already had ideas of ingredients that I wanted to use and what I wanted to avoid,” says Madeleine. “We spent many months trying to find an appropriate chemist who would meet our criteria of producing organic, vegan, coloured cosmetics, which is very difficult – and would actually take us on and to be willing to work with us. That was hard.”

They also talked to cosmetics packaging manufacturers about their sustainable options. But not being able to find exactly what they wanted, they decided to create their own bespoke plastic-free solution.

“So that again was something where we naively thought, oh well that doesn’t meet what we want, so let’s create our own, which turned out to be the right thing to do, but was also very difficult,” says Madeleine.

"We spoke to universities about what materials to use and they said you need a product designer -we didn’t really even know that we needed one,” says Suzanne. “Then we found Product Resolutions in Norwich.”

“They don’t work in cosmetics at all, they actually specialise in more medical and tech product development. So, we went to them and actually that was the best thing to do, because they came at it with fresh eyes,” says Madeleine.

Working together through the development, Madeleine and Suzanne found that their different skillsets complemented each other.

“In terms of product development, colours, formula, performance and texture, that’s what I like doing, what I’m best at,” says Madeleine.

“And mum tends to do more of the research side of things in terms of sustainability and funding. Because we are creating a very new type of product rather than just purchasing off the shelf products, we’re actually manufacturing, so we’ve been able to get funding to research and develop sustainable manufacturing practices.”

“I’ve worked in admin, civil service, schools, so not really the business sector at all, we haven’t run family businesses at all. So it was quite a curveball really,” says Suzanne.

“It was a different direction for me, but I had worked in careers in a school, so I knew perhaps what the private sector was like. And I suppose my skills like with money or admin, that Madeleine didn’t have so much of, complemented the gaps that you needed filling,” says Suzanne.

“And as I’m sure most family businesses would say, you can be very honest and that is really important at any stage of business,” says Madeleine.

Their plan was to launch their first capsule collection of five inclusive shades of lipstick (they range from an everyday neutral to a punchy red) in April 2020.

With the country in lockdown at the time, they did wonder whether to go ahead.

“We asked was it insensitive in a way to start talking about lipstick, didn’t we? And we had a debate,” says Suzanne.

“We’d spent so much by then, we had to launch then because we had perishable items that would go to waste if not,” says Madeleine.

“I think it challenged us to market ourselves in a different way, talking about self-care and the sustainability side of things,” she says.

The lipsticks have received rave reviews from the likes of Vogue and Harper’s Bazaar and have won awards for their packaging at the 2020 Pentawards and the PCD Paris Innovation Awards 2021, where they beat big beauty players Chanel and Jimmy Choo.

And Madeleine was named young achiever of the year at the 2021 CEW beauty awards, where they rubbed shoulders with the likes of Lisa Eldridge and Caroline Hirons.

“I cried,” says Suzanne, beaming with pride.

The industry is very supportive,” says Madeleine. “We were in this room full of all these women, mainly women, who have been in the industry for a long time and are at the top of big global businesses and they took the time to talk to us and help us.”

Since the launch of their luxury lipsticks, they’ve added a lip treatment to their product range, with more set to join them this year, including a hybrid lip and cheek tint.

They’re working on improving their refill systems – currently empty packaging can be returned, cleaned and put back into the system, but they’re developing at-home refills.

And Norwich skin health expert Louise Thomas, who stocks their products at her city salon, has recently joined their board.

“So, in terms of product development, we’ve got me with the make-up artist’s viewpoint, Louise there to help with skin health and then our chemist to bring it together, so it’s quite a well-rounded approach,” says Madeleine.

Plus, there are lots of exciting things in the pipeline, which they can’t talk about just yet.

Collaborating on a local level is really important to Madeleine and Suzanne. As well as working with their Norwich-based packaging designers, the products are manufactured in Cambridge and distributed from Norwich and they’ve got great relationships with their city stockists, Atwin in Bridewell Alley and Jarrold.

“Locally we are part of Jarrold Store Folk [local brands showcase], so we’ve done several pop-ups there. Atwin is a women-founded shop, mainly stocking brands owned by women,” says Madeleine.

“Norwich is good at collaboration, so Jarrold, for example, they’re so supportive of independent local brands, that’s how they started, and they want to see that for other people as well,” she says.

“They give us tips on marketing and how to present our goods,” adds Suzanne.

“It’s not just a brand-retailer relationship, it’s a supportive partnership,” says Madeleine.

And both of them have inspiring messages to other women who might be thinking of starting their own business – that you've got an idea, seize the moment, because it's never too early and it’s never too late.

“As a young woman, I would say don’t be deterred by the fact that you might be young or seen as perhaps a bit inexperienced, because you learn as you go and there is support there,” says Madeleine.

“In terms of the beauty industry, as a starting point, hair and beauty college is how a lot of people get into the industry – you can do that and one day become a CEO. And mum has started this as a completely new career as an older woman.”

“I would never have thought that I would have a new career and a new lease of life,” says Suzanne. “It’s been so invigorating – we go to London, we go to events, we meet people, it has been brilliant.”